What MA did you train before discovering I Liq Chuan?

[Miro]

 Сообщение от VEB

Anyway, now I do both yoga (both physical and mental exercies) and ILiqChuan. And I do not see any confilct between them, one comlements another. At least I see it this way now, being a novice in ILiqChuan.

Sometimes it is matter of time availability. If you want to learn one thing really good, the training takes a lot of time every day. If you want to learn two things really good, you likely get tough time with your family or the boss. Unless you are retired already:-)

Once one feels like being good in something already, it is very difficult to give it up in favor of something else. I have been learning Taiji Chuan for 10 years before I started with a sincere study of ILC. Before, there was a pretty long transition period, when I firmly believed that I can profit from both of the arts. Later I experienced and caused some confusions:-) Even later I noticed that it is easier to be focused on one art only. Now, I don't feel like having lost or given up something. Anyway, the principles in both arts are the same.

[Peter]

I knew a couple of Taiji routines before starting ILC. Now that I consider ILC as my main art, I try to use ILC principles as a tool to analyze my structure and find the absorb/project, open/close, condense/expand when I perform the Taiji routines. This has been beneficial, as the routines feel much more lively and focused now.

Peter

[VEB]

 Сообщение от Miro

Thus, the concept of "de-concentration" looks to me pretty like what is called in I Liq Chuan the attention. Or am I wrong?

For me it's the same. But since I'm too new here, I might be wrong and mislead you. So I would recommend you listening somebody with bigger ILiqChuan experience.

[VEB]

 Сообщение от Miro

Sometimes it is matter of time availability.

Luckily, I got in to some serious time-managed troubles some time ago (around 5 years). So I really had to "upgrade" my TM skills. This gives me more time for things are important to me.

 Сообщение от Miro

If you want to learn one thing really good, the training takes a lot of time every day. If you want to learn two things really good, you likely get tough time with your family or the boss. Unless you are retired already:-)

I guess, I'm covered from all fronts here . I'm the boss to myself (as well as 45 other people), which gives me some flexibility in my work day (though it's not really short). I also have a good wife that understand me and shares some of the interests (e.g. yoga).

And it's not really 2 things that I'm learning. I cannot say that I learn yoga. I have 3 major types of yoga exercises:
1. 2 times a week for 2 hours classes with my yoga teacher. At these classes I primarily do some static exercises that help to re-build the internal structure of the muscles in a way that is very beneficial to health. One cannot have more than 2 times per week of this, since it is very stressful to the body. The program is about the same for about 3 years. And I'm somewhere in the middle of it. So I have about another 1.5 years to do this before I can move to some serious pranayama (breathing with delays) exercises for another 2-3 years (this will help to rebuild some other structures of the body, as well as brain).
2. (Almost) every day “turn on” exercises that take around 30 minutes and are directed to influence major marmas (similar and typically the same as meridian points in China). And also these exercises turn on the Awareness for the day.
3. Once in a while (maybe several times a week) I do some mental exercises and meditation for about 30-50 minutes.

Thus, combined I spend something like 6-10 hours per week for yoga. Sometimes (3-4 times per year) attend seminars of good teachers.

As for ILiqChuan, yes, this thing I’m learning, while in yoga I’m simply doing, because I know I need that (yoga is much more boring).

So for ILC I try to practice:
1. 2 classes of 3 hours each where I do all the major ILC work – meditation, preliminary exercises, 15 basic exercises, standing meditation and Macrocosmic orbit, form and partner training for sticky and spinning hands.
2. 3-4 times per week (around 1 hour each) I come to the guy we do partner training with and we simply do some of the spinning or sticky hands.
3. Almost every day at home I try to do the form for about 15-20 minutes just before going to sleep (this helps to better build connections between neurons).

Thus, ILC takes me around 12 hours per week.

This means that my combined Yoga and ILC classes take around 20 hours per week.

When I just started doing some active measures I was able to free up around 30 hours per week by simply hiring a driver for myself(who also does some other things for me). And I also had some other things done, so combined I freed up several times more time than I currently spend on Yoga&ILC combined.

Basically yoga gives me physical health and Awareness.
ILC gives me Awareness and MA skills.

And for me there is another important factor here for the time we spend on something. The time spend can be simply doing something. Or we can be Aware of what we do. I guess if we are more aware of what we do 10 hours of practice can easily be equal to 30 hours of less mindful doing exercises.

 Сообщение от Miro

Once one feels like being good in something already, it is very difficult to give it up in favor of something else. I have been learning Taiji Chuan for 10 years before I started with a sincere study of ILC. Before, there was a pretty long transition period, when I firmly believed that I can profit from both of the arts. Later I experienced and caused some confusions:-) Even later I noticed that it is easier to be focused on one art only. Now, I don't feel like having lost or given up something. Anyway, the principles in both arts are the same.

I agree that I’m to new to understand now that the Awareness concepts both in Yoga and ILC are the same and benefit each other. I do not see any conflict in the physical part of the yoga classes.

But what concerns Awareness in Yoga and ILC, I guess I’ll be able to more knowledgeably say something about it several years later, maybe giving up one of this. But as of now they seem to be the same.

[Chris Newell]

At our last workswhop Sam talked about focusing your attention on your attention. At some point the mind has to stop the analysis and just being simply aware during your repetative training helps to de-concentrate.
I have a yoga practice as well, mostly asanas and pranayama. Although I would decribe them as complimentary I am struggling to find common elements other than at an awareness level. Most of the asanas are not natural poses and at higher levels get a bit extreme to say the least. The bandhas and extensions are not relaxed which is contrary to ILC.
And I think that the two practices actually come from different streams, which would explain their differences, in my opinion. The yoga pre-dates chinese MA and is based on ayurvedic knowledge while ILC would link back to traditional chinese medicine via the taoist practice. I guess they are both linked by the transmission of Budhist teachings.
I prefer the ILC approach and find that some of the local yogis take their practice a bit too seriously for me. My eyes glase over when they start on about all of the wonderful transformative aspects of doing a single asana. Of course to get the benefit, 'it has to be done correctly' which might explain why the benefits often seem to fall a bit short of expectations.
As far as time is concerned I wish I was retired. I find time to practice daily, one way or the other. Yesterday I had a nice 30km round trip peddle down to the Swan river and played around trying to find all of the circles in the saggital plane. I think we need a mathmatition to help!

[VEB]

 Сообщение от Chris Newell

At our last workswhop Sam talked about focusing your attention on your attention. At some point the mind has to stop the analysis and just being simply aware during your repetative training helps to de-concentrate.

Yes, it looks similar.

 Сообщение от Chris Newell

I have a yoga practice as well, mostly asanas and pranayama. Although I would decribe them as complimentary I am struggling to find common elements other than at an awareness level. Most of the asanas are not natural poses and at higher levels get a bit extreme to say the least. The bandhas and extensions are not relaxed which is contrary to ILC.

I alsmost do not do any extreme asanas, or "yoga-sport", as we call them at our classes. My are fairly primitive but targeted at working witht the largest group of muscles in the body.

As for the common elements with ILC, there are quite many both for the asansas and bandhas. E.g. when one starts practicing bandgas he uses all his muscles in the areas of interest and uses them very intensivly. As one gets more experience, he can use less muscles and at lower levels to turn on the same reaction in the body. Then he can get to a very-very small level of intensity to turn the reaction of the body (typically parasympathetic). Finally, one can bare think of the reaciton he needs and he gets it.

As I see it, this is VERY similar to the way we train in ILC - we first do the movement, preferably with big amplitude and a lot of power just to feel anything. As soon as we get this feeling, we can refine the movements, gradually decrease the amount of power we put there, etc.

Similar thing (though not that evident) is for asasans - we initally try to be able to get into it, then to keep it the needed period of time. Then we start feel our body better in the asanas, gradually try to refine them - get rid of all the other tensions and turn off other bodies.

If we combine this with high level of Awareness, we can do the asanas and at the same time observe what is going on with the body, as asanas typically influence one or several marmas (meridian points), which in turn do something with our body/mind.

Thus, to me all this is very similar. In ILC we simply train other things using similar principles (as well as some other principles).

 Сообщение от Chris Newell

And I think that the two practices actually come from different streams, which would explain their differences, in my opinion. The yoga pre-dates chinese MA and is based on ayurvedic knowledge while ILC would link back to traditional chinese medicine via the taoist practice. I guess they are both linked by the transmission of Budhist teachings.

I completly agree with you on the medical/health point of ILC and yoga. However, I somewhat disagree about the Awareness part of it. As far as I know Sam writes in his books and constantly says that ILC is a mix of Taichi and Zen.

So in my eyes we should focus more not on the medical part, but on the menta l- Zen. Zen is a derivative of Budhist that appeared in India. And both Zen and yoga share very many mental principles/approaches.

That is why I see no contradictions between the 2. For me yoga is health plus mental/awarenss(Zen), ILC is Zen plus MAs.

 Сообщение от Chris Newell

I prefer the ILC approach and find that some of the local yogis take their practice a bit too seriously for me. My eyes glase over when they start on about all of the wonderful transformative aspects of doing a single asana. Of course to get the benefit, 'it has to be done correctly' which might explain why the benefits often seem to fall a bit short of expectations.

As I already mentioned above, I consider myself to be very lucky with my yoga teacher. I do know that around 95% of other yoga present on the market (at least our market) is not even close, can do harm, etc. So I cannot recommend yoga for anyone, especially if there is not a good teach (which really is a problem).

 Сообщение от Chris Newell

As far as time is concerned I wish I was retired. I find time to practice daily, one way or the other. Yesterday I had a nice 30km round trip peddle down to the Swan river and played around trying to find all of the circles in the saggital plane. I think we need a mathmatition to help!

On one hand I would also like to be retired, but on the other hand, I guess practice is for life, not that life is for practice. And I actually find some beneficial things in other aspects of my life. So I cannot say being retired is critical for me.
As for the circles in the saggital plane - that a problem for me But I guess Sam would help us much better than any mathematician here.

[Chris Newell]

When we train ILC the first step is to practice training to unify the mental and physical and then we train to unify the self with our opponent and the larger environment.
Yoga aims to achieve union as well. Mentally I can see the similariity, some of the principles are similar but physically I can't. I think the 2 practices are complimentary (as VEB and I have both found) and would recommend a good yoga teacher to anyone, but on the physical level I think the approaches are almost opposite.
My yoga experience is with astanga and iyengar. I noticed on the links page on the ILC home page there is a group teaching the UCB program and they have a taoist yoga, maybe that is the missing link for me! Maybe yoga is closer to the zhang zhuang practice mentioned in the UCB program.
VEB think your point about the extent to which one applys bandhas over time is a good one.
I agree that yoga is excellent for muscle group work. This year I've been focusing onthe trans-ab work coupled with engaging the thigh muscles and lifting the knees in order to connect the upper and lower body. This is an excellent practice for stabalisation. It took me a while to get this one but it has a wonderful effect of integrating the whole body.
Can someone explain how to cite quotes in these replys?

[Steve Bobs]

 Сообщение от Chris Newell

Can someone explain how to cite quotes in these replys?

Hey Chris,
the only way I can do it is to click the quote button on the text you want to quote from and then you get a reply box with the quote in. I then just delete what I don't want to use. I'm sure there's an easier way

On topic, I don't study yoga as such but I do study qigong and there are many different styles and approaches. I seem to understand from what's been posted above that certain poses use (here goes the word with much related debate)' tension' in local muscle groups. This happens in some qigongs as well. My understanding is as Chris said, that they are opposite ends of the scale. Ie 'Iron shirt' vs. 'Cotton Belly' is a valid question for MA, but not so much for health. The whole body moves from relaxation to tension, the heart, the lungs etc. so by 'tensing' the body and relaxing it you are 'helping' it stay healthy. It is also helpful to notice the difference between how you feel in these 2 states. ILc wants you to be relaxed, fine, stay aware, stay relaxed, if your yoga/qigong posture requires the use of local muscle tension then, fine, become aware. Just try not to get confused

my 2 cents

Steve

[Chris Newell]

[quote=Steve Bobs;3455]Hey Chris,
the only way I can do it is to click the quote button on the text you want to quote from and then you get a reply box with the quote in. I then just delete what I don't want to use. I'm sure there's an easier way

Thanks Steve

Just try not to get confused

Good advice, cheers.

[VEB]

 Сообщение от Steve Bobs

Hey Chris,
the only way I can do it is to click the quote button on the text you want to quote from and then you get a reply box with the quote in. I then just delete what I don't want to use. I'm sure there's an easier way

Personally I do not know and easier way. I click "Quote" and then delete what I do not like. If I want to make a multi-quote, I use these things - [quote=Steve Bobs;3455] and then the other one that closes the quote. And I do as many of them in the text as I need.