ILC doesn't really look like .... anything

[Peter]

I've always associated martial arts with characteristic movements. Someone trained in Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido or Boxing generally has easily recognizable patterns of movements. For example, you can watch a clip and think: that's a Wing Chun guy fighting a boxer, or a BJJ guy fighting someone trained in Aikido, and so on.

However, when I watch someone trained in I Liq Chuan, I don't see such clear-cut movements.

ILC has produced at least two practitioners who are successful in martial arts competitions, Dasha in Russia and Ashe in the United States.

I recently watched a couple of their clips on YouTube, and wondered where the I Liq Chuan was in their fighting style:

Dasha's win in Moscow Sanda tournament (Dasha in red):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KZISfrX-b0&feature=channel_page

Ashe competing in a tournament:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5H_fhQ6UEc

So even after studying ILC for about 1 1/2 years, I wasn't able to see anything in the above matches that told me "This is an ILC fighter."

This prompted me to ask Ashe about it, and with Ashe's approval, I'll quote his answer to my email below.

me:
"Where is the I Liq Chuan in the fight? To me, everything looked like a pure boxing & kicking match. I didn't see a single thing that reminded me of I Liq Chuan."

Ashe:
"this is something that comes up quite a lot. the first thing you have to realize is fighting looks like fighting, but beyond that you should go back and watch it again and look for the clues.

13 points - does she maintain her 13 points throughout the fight?

six physical principles - does she follow them?

does she make use of the mirroring to guard and bridge?

does she use upper hand?

does she harmonize with the conditions. this includes time and space (i.e. rhythm and distance)

another thing to keep in mind when watching again is that a fight happens so fast, that the whole upper hand process of flow, fend, control and jam and happen in a fraction of a second. for instance if you bridge and jam the opponents strike, they may not recognize that they're in danger and just jerk their hand away, in which case you have to strike in right away. the opportunity is so brief, it can just look like "slappy hands", but to the two people on the mat it feels different.

also, it's a sport fight, wearing boxing gloves and head gear, which is limiting in many ways. so it's dasha using ILC under those conditions."

So maybe "ILC not looking like anything" is a result of ILC not training specific techniques - i.e., each fighter does his/her own thing based on recognizing their own unique physical limits & strengths, rather than memorizing pre-ordained patterns of movement?

Peter

[Miro]

This is a good topic, Peter.
What about this: The three mental factors, Present, Formless and Neutral and the Feel of Suchness are the necessary conditions for a fight. If one is in the state of the above factors, there is no place for anything else. No thoughts, no forms. A style is also a form. It is an opinion of someone on fighting. How can one manifest a style if he is supposed to be formless? He wouldn't be formless if he did. He also wouldn't be present and neutral.

Sifu often refers to a "melting pot" in course of his seminars. I understood that he means by this also a certain "de-stilization" and "de-personification" as a necessary conditions for learning.

[Vatican]

The translation of the thread is posted at the Russian section.

[Marty]

I think that I Liq Chuan, despite not being technique driven, would be more recognizable in a street fight than in a sporting event where there are rules, restrictions and protective equipment.

[ashe]

The translation of the thread is posted at the Russian section.

Now you're required to keep us up to date on the Russian side of the conversation! :)

Did you download those videos yet?

[Vatican]

Hi， Ashe！ Yes， of course i'll translate as soon as thhere is anything new at the russian part of the topic.

[Bmeeks0]

The Tai Chi I've learned is very very similar to ILC in method and strategy. I talk about my Tai CHi because I'm still an ILC noob.

Some of the student in the TAi Chi class would say the same thing, "Where's the Tai Chi"

my opinion is that for an art that isn't technique based its much harder to "see" it unless the practicioner has much more skill than the oponent.

A agree with Ashe, if the person is following the principles of the art then they are doing the art no matter what it looks like.

I haven't seen Ashe's fight but Dasha looked good. To me, she didn't look like a kickboxer. Theres a quality of movement involved.

My 2 cents.

[ashe]

my opinion is that for an art that isn't technique based its much harder to "see" it unless the practitioner has much more skill than the opponent.

but the thing about that is, even if someone can do a certain posture in real time, from an ILC perspective, that's still "rubbish". (IMO)

there's two reasons;

using a specific technique is based on intent, or another way of saying is that the person intends for their move to look a specific way, and that's not the same as just harmonizing with the conditions to perform the APPROPRIATE action.
even if you have a high level of ability to flow and feed, and so you can manipulate the opponent into a position the you can execute a given technique, that's still not the ILC way, which is the "art of offense". when the opening is there you just take it. you don't need to do anything fancy, which might take a few moves to "set up".

[Marty]

There are certain concepts and principles that I believe should manifest themselves to an ILC observer in the course of a fight ie. the four strategies.

[Bmeeks0]

but the thing about that is, even if someone can do a certain posture in real time, from an ILC perspective, that's still "rubbish". (IMO)

there's two reasons;

using a specific technique is based on intent, or another way of saying is that the person intends for their move to look a specific way, and that's not the same as just harmonizing with the conditions to perform the APPROPRIATE action.
even if you have a high level of ability to flow and feed, and so you can manipulate the opponent into a position the you can execute a given technique, that's still not the ILC way, which is the "art of offense". when the opening is there you just take it. you don't need to do anything fancy, which might take a few moves to "set up".


I wasn't trying to say that a person should do a move from the form or whatever. I meant "see it" meaning the... flavor... of it. Does that make sense? I would never do a tai chi form move no matter how much more skilled I am than my opponent. I would be able to act without creating resistance or force between myself and the opponent. And that would have Tai Chi-ishness to it. Same as what you say, when the opportunity presents itself you act on it.

[ashe]

Ok, that's fair enough. But let's talk a bit more about the flavor.
Now the first thing I'll say is I always tell people not to over think or split hairs over an analogy, as that's paying attention to the finger instead of the moon, but I think 'flavor' here is very appropriate.

Let's say I have three bowls of broth, ones pork, ones chicken and the other is beef. Could you tell which is which just by looking at them? Probably not, since broth all looks the same pretty much. You won't know until you make contact with it, that is, put it in your mouth and taste it, and then you can tell the flavor.

Another analogy might be a cotton T-shirt. (I use this one a lot when I'm trying to make a point about being mindful to harmonize with the conditions.) so let's say I'm wearing a cotton shirt. Can you REALLY KNOW what it feels like without touching it for yourself? No, because the quality of the cotton and thread count, etc. Will all affect the quality of how it feels.

So what I'm saying is, if we throw out 'signature moves', then how can we say what any flavor should look like? The only way to really tell is by contact.

[Bmeeks0]

Let's say I have three bowls of broth, ones pork, ones chicken and the other is beef. Could you tell which is which just by looking at them? Probably not, since broth all looks the same pretty much. You won't know until you make contact with it, that is, put it in your mouth and taste it, and then you can tell the flavor.

Well... Being a cook I could argue but I agree ith your point. :p



So what I'm saying is, if we throw out 'signature moves', then how can we say what any flavor should look like? The only way to really tell is by contact.

I agree. We shouldn't assign a look to an art. It is what it is. Thats why I brought up quality of movement.

IME, when a person is good at manifesting principles in thier work they don't necessarally get a "look" but a quality to what they do. You can't always put your finger on it(without actually putting your finger on them). It doesn't necessaraly have a given look.

You can't really know it without feeling it. Thats why I like "flavor". You can see ingredients in a dish but you won't know how it tastes until it touches the toung.

[ashe]

Well... Being a cook I could argue but I agree ith your point. :p

yeah, i should have said three bowls of chicken broth but one is plain, one has essence of garlic and the other essence of ginger.

then they would all look alike yet taste very different.

we need better smilies...

[Vatican]

this is the post from this forum (http://www.budo-forums.ru/index.php?showtopic=17253&st=40), Dasha explains her fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEAGh1oVV2s&feature=related) on Martial Arts Olympics.
Question:
What features of the style used in the fight can you point out?

Answer:
Let's divide it into 2 parts:
1. Things which common observer can easily see - the external part.
2. Things, which are very hard to see on the video, but which are obviously felt when used against you - the internal part. This also can be seen by a high-experienced practicioner of internal martial arts.

Some things which can be easily seen:

- Open frontal stance, inviting the opponent to attack, arms at the far distance;
- Power is generated by the 1st (wrist) section. That gives an opportunity to prevail when capturing the space, to deal with punches without using the close distance;
- There is no "switching" of the legs' muscles during the movement. The movement does not stop;
- Off-balancing the opponent on contact when striking or defending;
- Permanent attack;
- Jamming opponent's structure;
- No specific technics for offense or defense (If it is sanshou rules - it looks like sanshou, if muai-thai - like muai-thai, if tuishou - so you see tuishou, etc.)
- flowing the opponent;
- Offense or defense genereting the power from the feet, absorbing the energy of the strike using the hands;
- Split when striking;
- Body structure: opened back, condenced sturnum, shoulders, legament and bone structure.

2. The peculiarities of the style in the contact point, which are hard seen for the unexperienced observer:

- offense and defense is the one, there are no separate offensive or defensive movements;
- effecting centers of mass on strike, clintch, on any contact.
- strike goes through the whole structure of the opponent, no matter. what part of the body is in contact, at the same time of-balancing him.
- The opponent can not run away from the contact point and is stuck to it, because of 5 qualities in the point of contact. This does not allow him to continue attacking.

- you are formless, so you can not be caught on your reflex, habit, etc.
- The movement is circular, so the movement in your body and your strike do not not stop, you do not waste time on 'switching' from strike to strike.
- heep roll allows you to chang directions freely without stop.
- the power is generated by all the body joints;
- you use the unified force of the whole body.
etc.

we can write a lot on it, but it is not necessary. I tried to explain it in plain words using simple exaples. But that is the combination of everything which was mantioned, what does not allow the opponent to apply his technics. That is not because of his low level, or smth else.
And please, don't read this post through your past experience. Most of what i wrote about probably was not in your experience.

[Vatican]

Dima Palii (Baiun) a disciple to my Sifu (Alex) wrote this post (http://international.iliqchuan.ru/showpost.php?p=3910&postcount=16) after Dasha won her fights on Moscow sanda tournament.

What can be seen in the clip, by seconds:

Semi-final:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTiVI...y_videos_edit2 .

46 – 48 upper hands control
1min 03 sec – horizontal turn throw
1min 47 sec – horizontal whipe with counter-attack (right hand)
1 min 58 sec – horizontal whipe with counter-attack (right hand) - better view
2 min 22 sec – horizontal whipe with counter-attack
2 min 26 sec – 2 мин 27 сек – manipulating off-balanced opponent with meihua step
3.03 – sagital absorbing of the kicking leg, the energy goes down to the feet
3min 26 sec – 3 min 27 sec – meihua step with horizontal turn throw

4 min 00 sec – horizontal turn throw
4 min 20 sec – defending against the strike with the upper hands in horizontal plain
4 min 43 sec – beautiful sagital throw with grabbing the kicking leg
5 min 40 sec – horizontal turn throw

It is just the examples of application for those who are familiar with ILC. I did not pay attention to using of the structure, using the back, the heep roll, etc, because there is a lot to write.
with respect.

[Marty]

Thanks for posting those comments.

[Peter]

Viktor - thanks for the translations of Dasha's and Dima's posts. There's a lot of information there, and I'm sure I'll have to read through the posts several times before I can grasp much of what they are saying.

Peter
ps: Я надеюсь, что ваше недавнее Илицюань испытание прошло успешно.

[Bmeeks0]

we need better smilies...

I wouldn't complain. :)

[Bmeeks0]

Thanks for the translation Vatican!

[Peter]

I've heard some people describe ILC as a kind of "Fighting Taiji", but Sifu makes it quite clear that while ILC is based on Taiji and Zen principles (yin/yang etc.), it is definitely not a form of Taijiquan. So how would you guys describe the art of I Liq Chuan to others?

Peter

[ben]

Hey Peter,

you ask the best questions!

for me, how I describe I Liq Chuan depends on who I'm talking to and how long I have. "a martial art of awareness" is almost always how I start though.

I usually try to hit on some main ideas, starting with the idea of awareness over technique, the idea of unifying - first with the self, then with the partner, start very basic like that and let them ask questions. That way I can see how they're interpreting what I'm saying and help them understand what it is.

[Bmeeks0]

ILC is the western boxing of Chinese IMA.
:box:

[Chris Newell]

I've heard some people describe ILC as a kind of "Fighting Taiji", but Sifu makes it quite clear that while ILC is based on Taiji and Zen principles (yin/yang etc.), it is definitely not a form of Taijiquan. So how would you guys describe the art of I Liq Chuan to others?

Peter

Most other martial arts are based on accumulating physical techniques.
Sam does describe ILC as a “Martial art of awareness” and I think it’s the fusion of the mindfulness practice with the movement (based on tai chi principles) that makes ILC unique. We try and bring the Zen practice of being fully aware in the moment to movement and martial application.
So ideally you are relaxed and adaptable to the situation and can absorb and project energy as required to suit the circumstances.
We practice by developing improved tactile and such-ness feel. Such-ness feel is, in my experience, transcendent and quiet short lived. Tactile feel requires the development of concentration and attention and this leads to rational analysis of what we are doing and how we do it. The object is to increase such-ness feel (that is associated with practice and repetition (right practice and attitude etc)) as well as a clear rational understanding of what and how we are ‘doing it’. Then drop the analysis and just do it.

[Peter]

I found this comment at http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=216
There are basically 3 ways to defend from an attack and all three are effective if they are individually used as they were originally conceived. We have force meets force arts, such as karate, boxing, taekwondo and other striking arts. Secondly, we have the grappling arts such as Judo, Wrestling, etc. Third we have the avoidance arts such as aikido and some forms of Jujitsu etc.
While Chin Family I Liq Chuan contains elements of each of the basic martial arts systems (force meets force/grappling/avoidance), to me, it appears primarily to be an avoidance art in the context of the above classification.

Peter

[Bmeeks0]

From what little I know about it I would agree.

[ashe]

I found this comment at http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=216

While Chin Family I Liq Chuan contains elements of each of the basic martial arts systems (force meets force/grappling/avoidance), to me, it appears primarily to be an avoidance art in the context of the above classification.

Peter

i'm not sure it's so cut and dried like that. just look at mohammed ali's footwork and you'll see plenty of avoidance,

[Peter]

A friend recently lent me a book about a self-defense system called "Guided Chaos", which was developed by a police officer in New York City. (http://www.attackproof.com/) :box:

I was surprised to see much of the philosophy and training methods are similar to I Liq Chuan (perhaps because both systems utilize Tai Chi principles?):

For example, Guided Chaos is based on the principles of "balance, body unity, looseness and sensitivity".

The book also discusses the importance of concepts like flow, stickiness, maintaining a strong stance, etc. They even have a partner exercise called "Contact Flow" that looks a lot like spinning hands ...

In fact, the only major difference I have seen so far is that Guided Chaos advises against squaring off to the opponent (i.e., hips squared toward the opponent), in favor off standing at an angle in order to minimize the target area on your body. Guided Chaos appears to be quite popular among law enforcement and ex-military.

Peter